Semolina Pilchard ([info]pajo4042) wrote in [info]johnheartpaul,
2006-07-23 18:22:00
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More From Peggy Lipton's Book

A year later Paul and the Beatles returned to L.A. Paul called Peggy and she went running to see him again. Peggy says, " I came for dinner, and I was the only girl there. John definately didn't like that. He didn't like me being there at ALL. He was mean and sarcastic. As far as he was concerned, I had no business being invited to dinner with the four of them. For him this was an exclusive boys' club. He was purposely making me feel uneasy. At one point, the boys were handing around a scrapbook -- looking at pictures of that first tour. John made some snide comment like, "What is SHE doing here?" I got the idea that he thought Paul was an idiotto take a girl so seriously he'd actually invite her to dinner, when all he really needed to do was fuck her AFTER dinner." Does it sound to anyone else, like maybe John was a little bit JEALOUS of having to SHARE Paul with a girl that night?!
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  • 57 comments

[info]apartment42b

July 23 2006, 22:28:19 UTC 5 years ago

It sounds to me like John was a misogynest creep back in the day...

[info]apartment42b

July 23 2006, 22:28:59 UTC 5 years ago

(not that that's news to anyone, of course, heh!)

[info]nirvana_gal77

July 24 2006, 00:25:56 UTC 5 years ago

No, but he always makes sure we don't forget doesn't he?

[info]planetcrush

July 23 2006, 23:34:10 UTC 5 years ago

sounds like john is a (luscious) jealous bitch when it comes to sharing paul. ;P

[info]geminigirl58

July 24 2006, 00:11:56 UTC 5 years ago

For him this was an exclusive boys' club

Too bad that several years later he decided to bring a woman into the club. Not surprising he was met with resistance.

[info]trees696969

July 24 2006, 00:18:00 UTC 5 years ago

Hmmmmmm, but now I'm wondering if his intrusion with Yoko was in part an attempt to get back at Paul for all the times he brought women around.

[info]apartment42b

5 years ago

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[info]isasolan

July 24 2006, 00:16:30 UTC 5 years ago

How ironic that John felt this way and then a couple of years later he couldn't understand why the others were a bit uncomfortable with Yoko...

[info]lildevilgirl06

July 24 2006, 04:11:17 UTC 5 years ago

Huh. Where I have I heard John getting jealous of a girl who was with Paul (besides Linda) OH YEAH! Celia. I'm sure we all remember her since [info]isasolan wrote a story about it. Oh John. And I wonder why Paul was so oblivious to it all.

[info]hb_princess

July 24 2006, 04:17:13 UTC 5 years ago

IF he was oblivious to it. Peggy describes Paul later in the evening (after making love) as really withdrawn and quiet, not at all the bubbly, playful guy she'd met. I wondered when I read that if Paul was just upset at John's behavior, or if he felt bad because maybe John had wanted some time with him - take that any way you will - and Paul had fucked things up.

[info]lildevilgirl06

July 24 2006, 04:24:30 UTC 5 years ago

I give up on trying to understand their relationship. They just should've admitted their feelings to each other, make it public and then I wouldn't get a head ache trying to figure it out ahah.

But seriously, I wouldn't doubt that's why he was 'less bubbly' (or the sex was bad but meh). I mean with Celia he chose John. I dunno how to elaborate.. Maybe I'll comment more when I think it through/I'm less tired. It's all very interesting though :D

[info]geminigirl58

July 24 2006, 14:13:44 UTC 5 years ago

I wondered when I read that if Paul was just upset at John's behavior, or if he felt bad because maybe John had wanted some time with him -

Sure, or if he had that nagging feeling there was something more than just John being p.o'd over the intrusion of someone into the boys' club, and he didn't know what to do with that.

[info]geminigirl58

5 years ago

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[info]hb_princess

July 24 2006, 04:28:26 UTC 5 years ago

I'm so glad you posted this, [info]pajo4042! I've been toying with writing a fic about it ever since I read it. Sort of a semi-sequel to "Admit It," but less nasty. You have re-inspired me. ;)

Yes, John WAS a misogynist creep back in the day, as [info]apartment42b pointed out, but so were all the boys to some degree, and Peggy states unequiviocally that it was JOHN who had the problem with it. In fact - correct me if I'm wrong, pajo - didn't she, Paul, George, and Ringo all end up in the bathroom together, smoking pot? And John was just off somewhere, presumably sulking? I could swear that's in there.

Anyway...

What's really striking about this is the LEVEL of John's jealousy/anger/whatever. I wish she was more specific. That whole "all you need to do is fuck her after dinner" thing, for example...I'd love to know if John actually said that to Paul right in front of her or what. Not that I can't (unfortunately) IMAGINE John being that coarse and blunt, but...I'd still like to know for sure. Because that sounds like a lot more than just being irritated that your buddy brought a chick along for Boys Night In.

[info]apartment42b

July 24 2006, 07:30:31 UTC 5 years ago

True, John is a notoriously jealous guy. I find that easy to believe- the more I see pieces of it just being John speaking up here. There could be signs of a power struggle as well; John doesn't want to see Paul drift away in favor of spending time with girls. It could just be that Paul is the one that most shows this tendency- plus the one that John's most tied to. Not just his Buddy, but the one that he's *chosen* as his Best Mate, partner- if Paul's acting like he'd rather be with some bird, someone John can't possibly respect- he's gonna think he's going wierd on him.

I would think that he'd make a snide comment if one of the others brought a girl along, but I wouldn't expect it to be quite as viciously annoyed/taken so personally.

I'm less convinced that John would consider his bringing Yoko along as a way of "getting back" at Paul for all these times, though- I do find it ironic that suddenly it's okay for him, but I don't think John would be acually using Yoko to get back at Paul in *that* way; he seemed honestly upset that Paul was acting as though he *was* bringing along a bit of fluff to the studio.

[info]lildevilgirl06

July 26 2006, 05:25:31 UTC 5 years ago

True, John is a notoriously jealous guy.

This whole discussion is why I'm convinced that "Jealous Guy" was towards Paul and not Yoko. That, and he wrote it before he was heavily involved with Yoko.

[info]hb_princess

5 years ago

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[info]lildevilgirl06

5 years ago

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[info]apartment42b

5 years ago

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[info]geminigirl58

5 years ago

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[info]abromeds

5 years ago

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[info]whatsername_31

July 24 2006, 05:05:43 UTC 5 years ago

To me, honestly it sounds like jealously. This can stem from friendship...but who knows.

[info]geminigirl58

July 24 2006, 14:19:33 UTC 5 years ago

But at age 25 and in a male, that intensity of jealousy just from friendship would not be normal. It is either there are other feelings (hello, slash!) and/or it speaks to some greater abnormalities in John's personality structures.

Anonymous

July 24 2006, 18:55:29 UTC 5 years ago

......and Paul seems to understand very well John`s reasons.. And John understood Paul`s jealousy and pain because of Yoko very well too...

[info]geminigirl58

5 years ago

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[info]abromeds

July 24 2006, 16:03:42 UTC 5 years ago

Speaking of John's irrational jealousy of Paul's chicks... Remember the Hamburg story? George tells it in the Anthology...

So Paul was in bed with some random girl in Hamburg, when suddenly John bursts into the room, very angry and upset, and proceeds to curse and insult the girl before SHREDDING HER CLOTHING.

[info]geminigirl58

July 24 2006, 16:18:05 UTC 5 years ago

Oh yeah! He does have a pattern, doesn't he? Makes me wonder how he responded to Jane all those years! Does anyone have any evidence on that? Frances?

[info]hb_princess

July 24 2006, 20:57:12 UTC 5 years ago

Well, this is all I could come up with re/John and Jane:

Encouraged by her arty mother, [Jane had] first enrolled with a theatrical agency aged seven and had since graced several British films and starred in the West End, as well as – the ultimate accolade – guesting on Juke Box Jury. She was the ‘It Girl’ of the moment; in Lennon’s view, she was “smart, dead sexy and fun.”

Found it in this post here. By [info]poorfrances, natch! =) I don't know squat about Sandford's sources, though, or how reliable they are.

[info]lildevilgirl06

5 years ago

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[info]poorfrances

5 years ago

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[info]geminigirl58

5 years ago

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[info]hb_princess

5 years ago

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Anonymous

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[info]geminigirl58

5 years ago

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Anonymous

July 24 2006, 23:48:07 UTC 5 years ago

There is some evidence that John was horribly rude to Jane when they first met at least. Journalist Chris Hutchins wrote an account about it in a book according to a blurb I read on the RMB newsgroup some years ago. After the boys met her at the Albert Hall in April 1963 (with George and Paul both showing interest) Jane was invited back with them to journalist Chris Hutchins flat for drinks. According to Hutchins, John was in a right nasty mood, complaining about the lack of booze on hand and then preceded to upset Jane by asking her if women masturbate and what it was like. John was apparently relentless until someone (maybe George??) told him to STOP! As the story goes, they all shuffled out to a club or whatever, leaving Paul alone with Jane.....

[info]blackbird_num9

5 years ago

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[info]geminigirl58

5 years ago

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[info]hb_princess

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Anonymous

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[info]irishmacca

July 25 2006, 22:39:02 UTC 5 years ago

At the risk of being the odd person out on this thread, I don't really blame John for being annoyed at having a stranger show up at what was essentially a "family" dinner. I don't doubt that he was inexcusably rude, but looking at it from his point of view, here was some random girl with whom Paul was having a short fling, which meant that the other three would have to watch what they said during dinner. Given that Paul and Jane were officially "together," wouldn't that make conversation rather uncomfortable? Plus, they couldn't let their hair down, reminisce, talk about personal stuff that outsiders weren't supposed to know. So yes, I think John had a point -- if she's just some random shag, Paul should have done it on his own time, i.e. after dinner. I think Paul should have known better, with a girl like her . . .

And I agree there are the slashy undertones to the whole thing. It sounds like John would get pretty territorial when he had to share Paul with a woman -- even Jane, and of course, most famously, with Linda.

Just my two cents. And maybe I sound a little cranky because I'm stuck at work and I'm hungry, LOL.

[info]apartment42b

July 25 2006, 23:39:24 UTC 5 years ago

That's a very good point. The fact that John overreacted doesn't really excuse Paul's bringing in an outsider to dinner, which would make them all have to watch their words. And look- she *did* write a book about it. From Peggy's point of view, Paul's being romantic and bringing her to dinner, and of course she's overwhelmed with how RUDE John was (anyone would be)- but while it would have been much more adult/polite/socially appropriate for him to just take Paul aside afterwards and say "hey, I don't like you bringing someone in here we don't know when we're having dinner just the four of us." .... (HAHAHA I can't ever imagine John doing that, it cracks me up)... but... um... the fact that she was the *only* girl there..? Paul, you should've known better than to put Peggy and the boys in that situation. Bad communication!! John- extremely rude, over-reacted- no excusing him there of course. Paul- should have known she wouldn't be welcome, rather rude of him to put her in that situation if he did know, rather dumb of him/bad communication if he *didn't* know what was gonna happen. I mean, it is misogynistic and mean of John, but it also seems rather silly of Paul.

Unless Paul was *intentionally* trying to avoid having a heavy discussion with John... *wild speculation*

Of course, it seems like John's kind of unpredictable in his reactions (especially with guys who don't exactly communicate about their feelings), so it's hard to know what Paul was expecting. *shrug*

[info]pajo4042

July 26 2006, 00:17:00 UTC 5 years ago

Maybe this is a strange way of looking at the whole situation, but, wouldn't you think MOST guys would WELCOME a pretty , young girl for dinner? What I mean is, look, they spend EVERY waking moment together, even sharing hotel rooms at night. It just seems a little "odd" for it to be such a BIG deal to John........

[info]geminigirl58

July 26 2006, 01:05:56 UTC 5 years ago

It just seems a little "odd" for it to be such a BIG deal to John........

I agree and I think Irishmacca makes a good point, but the problem is that John's reaction was so over the top for that. If he were just a bit annoyed for having to watch his Ps and Qs around a stranger, that would be understandable. Plus,he has a pattern of acting out toward these females that Paul is involved with, at least at first. I keep coming back to either a slashy undercurrent and/or some problem/disturbance of John's. Regarding the latter, perhaps possessiveness, poor anger control, and/or hoping that they would spend some time together writing,talking, whatever.

[info]apartment42b

5 years ago

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[info]hb_princess

5 years ago

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[info]apartment42b

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[info]hb_princess

5 years ago

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[info]apartment42b

5 years ago

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[info]geminigirl58

5 years ago

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[info]abromeds

5 years ago

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[info]geminigirl58

5 years ago

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[info]apartment42b

5 years ago

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[info]geminigirl58

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[info]poorfrances

5 years ago

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[info]geminigirl58

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[info]apartment42b

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[info]geminigirl58

5 years ago

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